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dicer (Automotive)
10 Jan 10 1:56
I've seen some pretty high mileage change interval reports on some sites on the internet. Anywhere from 45,000 miles to over 120,000 I think these were pickup truck size diesel engines. Oil analysis specs were included in the threads as well.
ivymike (Mechanical)
10 Jan 10 8:54
when I had a 2003 mini, the computer was supposed to establish the change interval for me based on my driving cycle. It had my first interval at about 10k-miles, and my second change about 23k-miles after that. The oil (according to analysis) was pretty bagged out with 23k-miles on it, but not quite done.
RossABQ (Mechanical)
17 Jan 10 0:30
Some of the diesel guys run all kinds of super-fine filtration systems, larger reservoirs, etc. so who knows, but I can't believe the additives are doing anything at those quoted intervals, unless they are driving 2 or 3k miles a month. 字串8
I've found the GM oil condition monitors (2004-up) to be very good, recommending intervals of 5k miles over cold months, increasing to almost 10k in warmer weather.
evelrod (Automotive)
17 Jan 10 14:09
We all know the "rules", you know, the ones our dads taught us...I have always been a big believer in regular service and I still try to do what I think is right. A little more difficult since I have so many vehicles and something is always needing thereby often getting missed...
I'm not at all as worried as I once was since my daughter's little 2000 Accord at <200,000 miles seems to run just fine. No smoke, no leaks, no oiling problems that I can detect...AFTER ALL, SHE REGULARLY SERVICES HER ENGINE EVERY YEAR OR TWO !!!!!!!!!!!!!
I dunno.
Rod
RossABQ (Mechanical)
17 Jan 10 21:39
字串4
LOL, Rod, the need for regular dipstick checks and oil changes was impressed on me by my dad at an early age, right after my uncle (his brother) bought a brand new '57 Chev convertible, and ran it out of oil (on the factory fill) -- he didn't know you were supposed to check OR change it!
swall (Materials)
18 Jan 10 10:12
My new Chevy truck with Onstar give me monthly oil life reports. The usable change interval seem to be trending to 9,000 or 10,000 miles, but I try to stick with my 7500 mile interval with Mobil 1.
dicer (Automotive)
26 Jan 10 2:48
With the economy the way it is I bet there are lots of oil change intervals being lengthened.
diskullman (Industrial)
23 Mar 10 16:45
Amsoil preaches extended drain intervals. Some of their longer experiments ( over 200,000 miles) were accomplished using dual remote by-pass filter units. Another tidbit they preach is that dirty synthetic oil can be cleaned by changing the filter. Russell Giuliano 字串9
evelrod (Automotive)
23 Mar 10 17:29
This really makes all that I have been taught and all that I have believed to be true about oil and oil change intervals suspect. My daughter has ruined my life in that respect. Her 2000 Honda Accord has had, to my knowledge, THREE oil and filter changes since the car was purchased new. Yep, I said three, alright.....One from the dealer at around 5000 miles, one by her ex at ~100,000 miles and, the last by me at >200,000 miles...That was last year!!! That interval is even worse than I suspected, much worse. Still, the car still uses almost NO oil...cause it never runs out and she sure as heck doesn't add more than the occasional qt. At least she is smart enough to ck the dip stick every few months.
Why do I bring this up? Cause I'm realllly suspicious of some of the claims bandied about by some of the aftermarket oil purveyors. Statistics can be nothing more than organized lies. Caveat emptor! 字串2
I'm just too old to change. I'm too conscientious to push an oil change that far, for several reasons beyond the fact that it's just not the best thing for longevity in an engine and, partly because I was taught better!
Rod
Tmoose (Mechanical)
23 Mar 10 22:36
Hi Rod,
How things look under the Accord's oil filler cap?
Does she use synthetic or dino?
Dan T
diskullman (Industrial)
24 Mar 10 14:17
Mobil has perpetrated the myth of the 3000 mile oil change, it's REAL GOOD for business. Always check what the auto manufacturere recommends for their engine. Many recommend intervals between 7500 and 10,ooo miles, regardless of what Mobil would have you do. Russell Giuliano
evelrod (Automotive)
24 Mar 10 14:21
字串8
Sorry, Dan. I have no idea what her ex used, probably the cheapest stuff he could get. I had my sponsor change the oil in her car for me last year and they used a NAPA branded oil. ??? They also replaced the front pads and rear rotors/pads...they were down to metal on metal and she could not tell the difference.
I'm just not going to get upset over this cause that thing has already outlived any engine I know of, considering the lack of maintenance when it quits I'm the one she will come to for help. She puts about 2000 miles a month on it. Hey, what can I say? It's gonna happen!
Rod
dicer (Automotive)
27 Mar 10 0:18
(Does she use synthetic or dino?)
Ah don't you mean mineral? There is no dino.
Tmoose (Mechanical)
27 Mar 10 9:42
字串9
"oil is dinosaurs blood" - I heard that on TV so I believe it implicitly. (A long time ago, maybe Art Linkletter, Kids say the darndest things ?)
Dan T
patprimmer (Publican)
27 Mar 10 16:55
Dino is a term that has come into quite common use for mineral oil.
Is it really mineral or would natural petroleum based be more accurate or even very well decayed vegetable matter, just to be picky. Regards
Pat
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ivymike (Mechanical)
28 Mar 10 10:30
I think that there are plenty of minerals which are derived from decomposed biological material. I am wondering why one would say "there is no dino" though, if you take "dino" to mean oil derived from long-dead organisms... could it be that dicer is suggesting that mineral oil is predominantly abiogenic? 字串4
drwebb (Automotive)
29 Mar 10 9:46
'Synthetic' and 'mineral' are marketing terms with no technical definition as far as lubricating oils are concerned. A more rigorous formulation of the question would be along the lines 'does she use oil formulated from exclusively API Group III or above base oils, or having predominantly API Group II or less?' That's pretty cumbersome, and besides I think we all know what was meant.
dgallup (Automotive)
29 Mar 10 10:00
Synthetic and mineral oil had technical definitions before the courts got involved.
Late in 1997, Castrol changed the formula of its Syntec "full synthetic motor oil", eliminating the polyalphaolefin (PAO) base stock (that's the "synthetic" part, which makes up about 70% by volume of what's in the bottle) and replacing it with a "hydroisomerized" petroleum base stock. 字串2
Mobil Oil Corporation, maker of Mobil 1, "Worlds Leading Synthetic Motor Oil," said no fair and took its complaint to the National Advertising Division (NAD) of the Council of Better Business Bureaus.
It turns out that the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) and the American Petroleum Institute (API) both have technical standards covering motor oils, and both of these organizations in the '90's backed away from their old definitions of "synthetic," leaving lots of room for new interpretations.
In the end, NAD decided that the evidence constitutes a reasonable basis for the claim that Castrol Syntec, as currently formulated, is a synthetic motor oil.
Which has to be one of the most wrong headed court decisions of all time.
ewh (Aerospace)
29 Mar 10 13:27
Using that rational, wouldn't any oil product that wasn't "as pumped" from the ground and processed in some way be considered synthetic? "Good to know you got shoes to wear when you find the floor." - Robert Hunter 字串3
dicer (Automotive)
31 Mar 10 20:14
There is no animal by products in petroleum.
Put a stailess steel tray under a dead mouse burried in your back yard, tell me how much oil you gather!
Then think, 30,000 feet through rock and clay, the logic just isn't there.
http://mondovista.com/abioticoilx.html
drwebb (Automotive)
1 Apr 10 9:30
The NAD solicited many expert opinions, including no less than Nobel winning Organic Chemist Roald Hoffmann who came down on Castrol's side. Their assertion that 'synthetic' meant "the product of an intended chemical reaction" would seem to exclude "Solvent-Neutral" (API Group I) petroleum oils becuase they are products of distillation and extraction refinements of crude oils. Considering the degree of new chemical bonds produced in processing API Group III oils- particularly C-C isomerizations- severe hydrotreatment was judged to qualify as a synthetic process. There were also commercial precedents cited as significant bases for the NAD decision. 字串6
Note that the Castrol-Mobil dispute did not encompass API-Group II base stocks, which are the basis for the majority of current specification "conventional" engine oils. These are 'intentionally reacted' to produce C-H bonds from unsaturated sites and so would seem to fit the Hoffmann definition of synthetic also. Nevertheless, it is not common practice to market such "conventional" oils as synthetics, and attempts to do so would likely wind up back at the NAD for adjudication.
ewh- close but not quite. As noted there appears to be a technical basis for API Group I oils NOT being 'synthetic'. But what IS "synthetic" has historically changed, and seems to be currently determined- rather than defined- by industry (i.e. market) consensus.
As was noted in the NAD decision the term "mineral" may also be ambiguous because even the uncontested "synthetic" polyalphaolefins (PAOs, API Group IV oils) trace their origins to ethylene which is produced from petroleum crackers. 字串2
ewh (Aerospace)
1 Apr 10 9:55
Thanks, drwebb. I appreciate the interesting explanation. "Good to know you got shoes to wear when you find the floor." - Robert Hunter
ivymike (Mechanical)
1 Apr 10 10:13
Dicer, I don't think anybody here disagrees that in the world some small amount of petroleum oil does come from abiogenic sources. The primary source of it is biogenic. If you would like to see a good museum exhibit explaining the physical processes which result in formation and trapping of oil and natural gas, I recommend this one:
http://www.hmns.org/exhibits/permanent_exhibits/energy.asp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenic_petroleum_origin
"Abiogenic petroleum origin is an alternative hypothesis to the prevailing theory of biological petroleum origin. Most popular in the Soviet Union between the 1950s and 1980s, the abiogenic hypothesis has little support among contemporary petroleum geologists, who argue that abiogenic petroleum does not exist in significant amounts and that there is no indication that an application of the hypothesis is or has ever been of commercial value." 字串9
dicer (Automotive)
16 Apr 10 20:10
Please,just do the experiment and then get back to me.
Remember many petroleum wells are in the 20,000 foot plus range. Also remember animal and vegitation decay and are consumed by micro oganizims. Please explain how dead animal material can soak 5 plus miles into the earth, if that is the case we should have almost no water at the surface of the earth, since it will pass more easily through the earth rock and granite filter than a dead horses oily residue will.
And how come the molecular make up of petroleum has zero relationship to animal molecular make up?
The primary source is not biogenic. That may happen in the lab but not in nature.
NavyEngineerRetired (Military)
17 Apr 10 12:42
Know the Facts: Extended Drain Intervals mean Fewer Oil Changes, Long Term Savings and Convenience. 字串1
In Maintenance, LESS means MORE
LESS Effort means MORE Productivity
LESS Complicated means MORE Confidence
LESS Waste means MORE Profit / REDUCED Expenses
MAXIMUM Oil Change Intervals ~ 100,000-Miles and Beyond
3-Steps to Virtually Eliminate YOUR Vehicle Oil Changes Forever
The Best Kept U.S. Military Vehicle Maintenance SECRET for 20 + Years
Direct from the U.S. NAVY Joint Services P2 Maintenance On-Line Public Files
Backed Up By: Society of Automotive Engineers 1995 Technical Paper #952553
The Bottom Line: It's Time for 100,000-Miles and BEYOND Extended Oil Drain Intervals
You get better wear protection, lower engine temperatures, improved fuel efficiency and easier cold-weather starts.
All of these benefits add up to reduced operating costs and longer engine life. And even more, you generate less waste oil, which helps preserve our environment and reduce our dependence on foreign oil. 字串1
REDUCE - Equipment Down or Out of Service Time
REDUCE - Lubricant Inventory Requirements
ELIMINATE - Premature Equipment Failures
REDUCE - Energy and Fuel Consumption
REDUCE - Hazardous Waste Lubricants
STREAMLINE - Maintenance Protocols
REDUCE - Waste Disposal Expenses
MAXIMIZE - Equipment Service Life
REDUCE - Man Hour Requirements
EXTEND - Lubricant Drain Intervals
REDUCE - Capital Expenditures
INCREASE - Production Production NAVY ENGINEERS ~ Do MORE Maintenance With LESS
NavyEngineerRetired (Military)
17 Apr 10 12:53
Mobil 1 Synthetic Motor Oil goes 28,000 miles in "extreme" conditions -- before changing...
http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Drive/Drive_Around_the_World_Miles.aspx
Oil Change News:
According to Automotive Service Operator in January 1999 the Convenient Automotive Services Institute (CASI) found 60 percent of the 210 articles on extended oil drain intervals published in the past year have recommended extended oil drain intervals; US automakers are finally beginning to recommend longer extended oil drain intervals... or are they... because... 字串8
When you consider in 1997 Mr. Mike McMillan of General Motors Stated: And I Quote, "Extending Drain Intervals is an important issue for us. We definitely want to be the leader in Extended Drain Intervals."
Yet, In the very same year of 1997... European automakers started recommending 18,000 + miles between oil change intervals and that was after a decade of 9,000-miles between oil change intervals... European Oil Change Intervals Going To 27,900-Miles and Beyond
Marc Graham, president of Pennzoil-Quaker State-owned Jiffy Lube International, was quoted in a 2001 Lubricants World interview as saying, "At [PQS] we use a number internally that if we [shortened the drain interval] by 100 miles [for each car serviced], it would mean an additional $20 million in revenue for the company." He also explained that "if we could move our customers to get one more oil change per year, it's worth $294 million for the oil change alone and $441 million in revenue, when you include the ancillary products and services customers typically buy along with the oil change." Which explains why Quaker State stoped their advertising of protection beyond 3,000-miles after being purchased by Pennzoil. 字串4
Fast Forward to Lubes'n'Greases September 21, 2005 Industry News Volume 5 Issue 38 GM: 30,000-mile Drain Intervals are Achievable
Typical drain intervals with General Motors' Oil Life System, the onboard computer algorithm that tells drivers when it's time to change their motor oil, are 8,500 miles, versus 5,000 for GM's competitors, a GM executive told last week's World Tribology Congress. Drain intervals over 30,000 miles are achievable with minor engine modifications and appropriate oil quality.
"We cannot say exactly when it will happen, but drain intervals will be lengthened," James A. Spearot, director of GM's Chemical & Environmental Sciences Laboratory in Warren, Mich., told the World Tribology Congress meeting in Washington, D.C. Sept. 15. And it will happen, along with numerous other technological advances, thanks to the contributions of tribology - the science of rubbing surfaces.
Major drain interval improvements are achievable with appropriate oil quality and hardware technology, to over 30,000 miles with minor engine modifications and over 40,000 miles with major engine modifications, he added. "But we still need to strive for the best fuel economy, no compromise on engine durability, and no negative impact on emissions systems." NAVY ENGINEERS ~ Do MORE Maintenance With LESS
字串3
NavyEngineerRetired (Military)
17 Apr 10 13:04
U.S. Military Engineering Note:
The Service Life Cycle of a lubricant is dependent upon the "QUALITY" of the oil and the filtration system's ability to keep it clean. NAVY ENGINEERS ~ Do MORE Maintenance With LESS
ivymike (Mechanical)
17 Apr 10 22:33
"Please explain how dead animal material can soak 5 plus miles into the earth"
uh, nobody around here (except you) said it "soaks in." The abiogenic theory holds that it formed way down deep and "soaked out," until it got trapped by a layer of (biogenic) limestone. For some reason that sounds a more appealing explanation to you, I take it?
...a dead horses oily residue
we're talking plankton and diatoms, not horses. 字串2
"how come the molecular make up of petroleum has zero relationship to animal molecular make up"
I'm not sure where you get that idea.
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbohydrate
A carbohydrate is an organic compound with the general formula Cm(H2O)n, that is, consists only of carbon, hydrogen and oxygen, the last two in the 2:1 atom ratio. Carbohydrates can be viewed as hydrates of carbon, hence their name...Carbohydrates perform numerous roles in living things.
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrocarbon
In organic chemistry, a hydrocarbon is an organic compound consisting entirely of hydrogen and carbon.[1] Hydrocarbons from which one hydrogen atom has been removed are functional groups, called hydrocarbyls.[2] Aromatic hydrocarbons (arenes), alkanes, alkenes, cycloalkanes and alkyne-based compounds are different types of hydrocarbons. The majority of hydrocarbons found naturally occur in crude oil, where decomposed organic matter provides an abundance of carbon and hydrogen which, when bonded, can catenate to form seemingly limitless chains. 字串5
http://www.centreforenergy.com/AboutEnergy/ONG/Oil/Overview.asp?page=3
ivymike (Mechanical)
17 Apr 10 22:44
http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/1997-08/866467685.Es.r.html
evelrod (Automotive)
20 Apr 10 15:43
Since we seem to have segued into things getting buried...
While my sister was in Israel she sent some photos of a "dig" near where she lived in Yafo. This tell was a cobblestone street with evidence of houses. Not all that uncommon over there, I guess. What gives me pause is the fact that it was something like thirty feet below street level and was dated less than 2000 years ago. So, tell me how a complete city gets buried in such a short time? What is more important in this case is that at the "30" level it was nowhere near the beginning of civilized occupation in that particular tell. 字串5
Rod.....Not meant to understand everything, I guess.
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